Talk:Flag of Hawaii

Independence Movement Flags

File:Hawaiiindependenceflag.jpg

Hawai‘i Independence Flag used by various state agencies and sovereignty organizations

Can we please move the Hawai‘i Independence Flag to a new entry of its own? There is nothing in the article referring to it except for the banner under the image itself. Furthermore, I don't think it's appropriate for inclusion in an article about Ka Hae Hawai‘i. A link to the new entry would be fine with text such as: "There is a separate Hawai‘i Independence Flag used by sovereignty organizations in Hawai‘i". -- Mordomo, 29 July 2004

I think this article could be improved by covering the flag(s?) of Hawaiian independence advocates, such as the Hawaiian Independence Flag. Would not adding material about this flag and its contested relationship to the Ka Hae Hawai‘i would be preferable to splitting off a separate flag stub? --ScottMainwaring 20:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Union Flag / Union Jack

changed a line to Union Flag not Union Jack. Still plenty of Wiki articles refering to the Union Jack when the flag is only known as a Jack when flown from a ship or boat . when flown from buildings etc its always known as the Union flag —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.2.65.41 (talk) 20:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Just because something is repeated often, does not make it true. "Union Jack" and "Union Flag" are synonymous. It is modern pedantry that insists on "Union Flag", which has no basis in history where the flag has always been called the Union Jack by common usage since its creation. See the wiki article on the subject...82.38.193.11 (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

in continuous use?

Quote:

Ka Hae Hawai‘i is one of the oldest flags in the world in continuous use

Is it? If so, we should add this remark to the Union Jack page too, cos that's clearly older. Andy G 18:35, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I know it's one of the oldest flags in the United States in continuous use, but I'm not so sure its one of the oldest flags in continuous use in the world. --Gerald Farinas 19:18, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, going through the flags page and the Flags of the World, here are all the flags that I've found so far that are older than 1816 or so. I'm sure I've missed some obvious choices, so I'll add to this list if I can find more (or feel free to do so yourselves).

• Turkey, 1793 or earlier (used for the Ottoman empire, then Turkey as a nation)
• France, 1794
• United Kingdom, 1606 for the original Union Flag (although the United Kingdom didn't exist until 1707)
• United States, 1777
• Austria, 13th century origins
• Denmark, 1219 or so
• Japan, legend of the flag dates back to 13th century, 15th century if you count it being used as flown from ships, otherwise it dates from the Meiji Restoration of 1868
• Argentina, 1816
• Sweden, 16th century
• Spain, 1785 (since 1843 as national and army flag ,since 1927 as merchant flag)
• Switzerland, proposed 1817, first flown 1821
• Netherlands, 1813 (end of French occupation)
• Martinique, 1766
• Chile, 1817

I'm not counting minor changes to a flag (such as adding stars in the United States' flag or putting the St. Patrick's cross in the Union Flag). I'm also not counting what the flag stands for (such as Turkey's flag) as long as it's been in continuous use.

The FotW's Adoption Dates of Flags is a good reference for this, but they list the date the flag was last changed, rather than when it was first used. Even by this standard, Hawaii's flag dates from 1843, and is still older than most:

• Norway, 1821
• Peru, 1825
• Belgium, 1831
• Uruguay, 1830 (first adopted 1828)
• Paraguay, 1842

Curiously, in this list, Japan's flag dates from 1999! --Mordomo 06:27, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When when the average reader sees such a remark, he / she will expect such a flag to be close to the top of such a list, not around 20 places down on it. I'm removing this line. Valentinian ^(talk) 17:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The dimensions of Japan's flag were formally changed in 1999, so though the basic design (the hinomaru against a white background) remains the same, I guess it counts as a new flag. 笑. LordAmeth 18:10, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

In addition, between 1945 and 1999 there was no OFFICIAL flag of Japan, though the hi no maru was used that way. In 1999 it was made official. Nik42 06:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Please move this page...

...for consistency with the article lead. Since Ka Hae Hawaiʻi is problematic due to the okina not being supported by most fonts I propose the following: Ka Hae Hawai‘i which looks reasonably similar. At least it would be an improvement from the current title, no? Shinobu 03:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

British protectorate???

This article says Hawaii was a British protectorate, but this isn't mentioned in the history of Hawaii article!--Jack Upland (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Technically not an actual protectorate. Nothing was ever official. King Kamehameha I offered his entire kingdom to the British as a protectorate of sort but Britain decline the offer; some comtemporaries compared Kamehameha to Indian rajh, who were under British control. His successor also had close ties to Britain. In 1843 the Paulet Affair made Hawaii a British colonies for a time.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:01, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Nine stripes and Nihoa

I heard that there was once nine stripes on the Hawaiian flag, but Nihoa was uninhabited at the time of the start of the Kingdom and for many generations prior, and it was, according to other sources, unknown to the Hawaiians except in chants and oral traditions until Kaahumanu and Kaumualii sail to the island and claimed it for the kingdom in 1822.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:33, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Also no explorers left any mentions on where the union jack sat on either the nine-striped version or the seven-striped version.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Seven stripes???

It mentioned "The number of stripes also changed: originally, the flag was designed with seven horizontal stripes, and in 1845 it was officially changed to eight stripes. The latter arrangement was adopted and is used today." Yet there isn't a seven striped flag listed at all.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Also no explorers left any mentions on where the union jack sat on either the nine-striped version or the seven-striped version.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:00, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

What islands the seven stripe version represent is even a bigger problem. In this [1] it is mention that the seven stripe represent all the island under Kamehameha's control not counting the four ruled by Kaumualii his viceroy. First off what other island is there beyond Kauai to make the number seven and what were the four islands rule by Kaumualii.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

"Kanaka Maoli" Flags

There should not be any discussion of the so called Kanaka Maoli Flag in the same article as the legitimate. historically known flags of Hawaii. The section that was there was so poorly written as to have been laughable. There is no historical evidence of any such flag ever. If and when its proponents can prove its historical bona fides, then and only then should it be included. Scottca075 (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I put the Kanaka Maoli flag back in as it has become very popular in recent years. Yes, you are right that there is not verified historical evidence of the flag being used, but I'm sure hundreds of people come to this article to learn more about it so the omission seems more misleading than presenting the facts. It's better to write that it is an unverified claim than to not mention it at all. NotAWittyFish (talk) 02:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Can we start putting "unverified facts" in other articles because they are popular unverified facts? Why on earth is something that is admittedly not a fact in a resource that strives for accuracy? Scottca075 (talk) 03:11, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

The Kanaka Maoli flag is notable, despite the lack of verifications of the claims surrounding it. Acknowledging that the claims are unverifiable is not nearly the same thing as making unverified claims (which would be against the standards of Wikipedia.) All statements in the entry are sourced.  Not A  Witty Fish 14:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@NotAWittyFish: This has all the hallmarks of deliberately manufactured history, which is something Wikipedia strives to avoid documenting. In particular, to avoid WP:CIRC, which in the past has resulted in Wikipedia citing sources which in turn cite Wikipedia to validate their claims. I'd suggest this entire section needs to be deleted. Tarl N. (discuss) 20:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how this is different than the entries on flat Earth or Bigfoot. Acknowledging that other people are making claims is not the same as asserting they are true. Given the flag's notability, the only other option I see is giving it it's own page, but that feels like undue weight per WP:UNDUE.  Not A  Witty Fish 21:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:WHATABOUTX.Tarl N. (discuss) 02:38, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

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where is the current flag of hawaii

where is the current flag of hawaii — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitsnitz (talk • contribs) 15:56, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Unnecessary trivia

A statement has been added to the lede: "It also inadvertently features the former flags of Montenegro, Serbia, and Yugoslavia, as well as the flag of Poland, though this is coincidental."

I'd regard this is excessive trivia. Unlike with the union jack, the resemblance to the flags in question are that they have stripes and use a subset of the colors. If this kind of trivia is necessary, we should include the Russian flag and the flag of France too, although one is rotated 90˚ and the other 180˚. We should also edit the flags of every state which has any green and include the fact that it include the Flag of Libya. And every flag which has red and white should note that it includes the flag of Poland.

I think this is a prime case that even if someone has a WP:RS stating it, it doesn't belong in this article, let alone in the lede. Tarl N. (discuss) 18:40, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Union Jack or Union Flag

There have been a number of edits recently changing Union Jack to Union Flag, under the claim that it's only called the Union Jack when it is aboard a ship out of harbor. My understanding is that concept (only being a Union Jack when sailing) is quite new, and certainly wasn't in place at the time the Hawaii flag was created. Comments? Tarl N. (discuss) 17:44, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

Early version of the Flag shows 8 stripes - not 9

The photo in the article labelled "Flag of Hawaii, 1816–1845" has 9 stripes. But there is at least one piece of evidence that the flag had only 8 stripes for at least part of that time. The site Hawaiian Kingdom.org (https://hawaiiankingdom.org/blog/the-hawaiian-national-flag-and-royal-flag/) features a portrait purportedly drawn around 1819 or shortly thereafter that includes both the national flag and the royal ensign. The flag in the drawing clearly shows 8 stripes with a white stripe at the top and what looks like a red stripe at the bottom (the image is in black and white, but you can see the difference between the read and blue stripes in the darkness of the shading) (https://hawaiiankingdom.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Hawn-Flag-Adams-Collection.jpg). Should another rendering be added to the article with this color scheme to represent that the flag shown in the portrait was also used? It seems like this actual drawing of the flag from that time period would be worthwhile to inform an additional rendering on the side of the article just for the sake of clarity and accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 215.1.59.11 (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Current Flag Image Has Some Incorrect Proportions

According to Hawaii Revised Statutes §5-19 the stripes in the jack are a bit out of proportion in the main infobox representation of the Hawaiian flag. The width of the stripe with its borders is meant to be the same as the width of the horizontal stripes.

I've uploaded a new SVG that is in compliance but I haven't yet replaced the existing one:

Flag of Hawaii

--Tymcode (talk) 20:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Confused by this part

"Adams noted that in 1817 on his way to China he raised his own ensign on Kauai in lieu of a Russian flag as the king had no other." - Why would a Scottish captain raise a Russian flag? -- Hux (talk) 16:06, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Comment about Russia was added with this edit by User:Mark Miller. Tarl N. (discuss) 17:28, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

It was a Kingdom of Hawaii ship called the; "Kaahumanu" being Captained by Adams under the Hawaiian navy, which he commanded. I will clarify. Mahalo.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:28, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: The question is why does the Russian flag get involved? And where is the cite? Tarl N. (discuss) 01:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

You are right that it is part of the initial question. The citation is at the end of the full claim from the source which is "The Friend". I can add the same citation next to the precise mention after I further clarify the situation with the Russian flag and the Russian Fort on Kauai.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:14, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

In the source, they are commenting on content from Thrum's annual of 1879. In 1817, the Island of Kauai was still independent in some ways, although considered a vassal to Kamehameha I. Russia had established a complete fort but did not take over the island however, held some stake in the lands for a short period. This is somewhat established in the source but could be strengthened. When I added this portion I had not yet understood the significance of the Russian Fort Elizabeth.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tarl N.:, @Hux:. I have clarified and added a bit more with more references but please let me know of any concerns. Mahalo!--Mark Miller (talk) 18:22, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@Mark Miller:. Makes much more sense now! Thanks for improving it. --- Hux (talk) 19:56, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: Ah - agreed, much better. This was because Kaumualii had a Russian ensign left over from the Russian-America company, and Adams provided a different flag. Much, much easier to understand, thanks. Tarl N. (discuss) 22:16, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Moving from article

This source might be used later;

<ref name="quaife">{{cite book | last = Quaife | first = Milo |author2=M. J. Weig |author3=R. E. Appleman | title = The History of the United States Flag | publisher = Harper | year = 1961 | location = New York | page = [https://archive.org/details/historyofunited00quai/page/154 154] | url = https://archive.org/details/historyofunited00quai | url-access = registration }}</ref> --Mark Miller (talk) 21:23, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

And this;

"An adviser to Kamehameha noted that the Union Flag could draw Hawaii into international conflict, as his kingdom could be seen as an ally of the United Kingdom, and he subsequently lowered the Union Flag over his home at Kamakahonu. While disputed as to its historical accuracy, one account stated that in order to placate US interests during the War of 1812, a US flag was raised over Kamehameha's home, only to be removed when UK officers in the court of Kamehameha vehemently objected to it. This would explain why the resulting flag of Hawaii was a deliberate hybrid of the two nations' flags. In 1816, Kamehameha commissioned his own flag to avoid this conflict, which has evolved into the current flag. It was probably designed by one of the commanders of the Royal Hawaiian Navy (which consisted of HHMS Kaimiloa), former officers of the British Royal Navy, who advised Kamehameha, based on a form of the British naval flag. There is debate as to the actual designer: some credit Alexander Adams, others George Charles Beckley."

--Mark Miller (talk) 21:37, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Missing image?

At the top of the gallery of images there is an entry “Flag designed by Louis Agard…”

In my browser (Safari on iPad) I do not see any image. I have no idea how to fix this. William.quay (talk) 15:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Overhaul of the lead

Propose to change the lead based on these points:

• In line with many other flag pages, describe what-it-is in the first sentence, then talk about its adoption or history after.
• Re the Union Jack, I think “legacy” is better than “commemorates”; I contend that the UJ in the flag doesn’t “memorialize” anything; and Hawaii was never formally part of the British Empire.
• The sentence about being the only state flag to have a foreign country's flag: is this really notable enough for the lead? Reads like trivia. The California flag is the only one featuring a grizzly bear. So what?

So how about this new lead?

The Flag of Hawaii is the official flag of the US state of Hawaii, consisting of a field of eight horizontal stripes, in the sequence white, red, blue, white, red, blue, white, and red with a Union Jack in the upper-left corner. It was first adopted in the early 19th century by the Kingdom of Hawaii. The use of a British flag is a legacy of the Royal Navy's historical relations with the Kingdom and, in particular, the pro-British sentiment of its first ruler, King Kamehameha I. The design was retained after the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy in 1893, and it's use continued when Hawaii became a US state in 1959. Jp2207 (talk) 22:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)