Category talk:Former countries in Chinese history

CFD discussion

• Category was listed for deletion on January 23, 2005. Consensus was to keep.

POV and unmanageable. What is a country anyways? There have been warring "states" in the past but there is only one "mandate of heaven" ruling "all under heaven". Are these states only related to China? Part of China? Some of them are tributary... --Jiang 22:57, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Oppose While the term is improper, the category itself makes sense. Two-four thousand years the term "country" might be not very well applicable. I am not a china-historian, but there definitely were quite a few different "empires", "domains", whatever you call it. Mikkalai 03:11, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rename...um...something. Category: Historical Chinese nation-states, perhaps? Grutness|^hello? 04:06, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Keep. This is obviously an attempt to make a national subdivision of Category:Former countries. I guess this cat can include any former country related to China or ruled by Chinese. The listing of a former country in the Chinese history does not preclude it from being listed in any other history, right? --Gene s 15:12, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

the term "country" is sometimes innacurrate or POV--Jiang 19:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It is a subdivision of the Category:Former countries. Please propose to rename that category as well if you strongly think that the word "countries" involves points of view. -- 10:03, January 26, 2005, UTC

Keep--AznEffects HuangDi 1968 23:41, 2005 Feb 13 (UTC)

Former countries in China history

It proposed that it be merged into this category.--Salix (talk): 00:20, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Why?

Why are certain countries, like the East Turkestan Republics, etc. considered part of the history of China? Are these countries, even if independent, considered not worthy of having their own history and just being second tier protagonists, who only can have a history in the context of another one? Is the United States also a country in the history of China? Can I add it to the category? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.85.85 (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Category must be corrected due to current POV pushing/manipulation

It's become clear after I examined this page and looked into why so many countries that shouldnt be on here are on here, that I have come to the conclusion that this page's definition is not only too vague (and should be fixed), but it's not even being applied properly and in many cases the category is being used aggresively to push POVs.

"Definition: same as Category:Former countries. States under this category appeared in Chinese history, and their appearance in human history is largely found in Chinese records (e.g. Nanzhao, Dali). They do not have to be part of, or tributary of imperial China."

First and foremost, the Former countries in Chinese history is one of the few pages in the categories that actually uses this definition. Contrast this with the Former Countries in East Asia category page. The Mongol, Korean, and Japanese pages do not use this territorial definition, and almost all the listed states of the three pages clearly list states that were identified as predecessors of the modern iterations of the Mongol, Korean and Japanese states. The territorial argument would also create an absurd cascading effect, if we applied this page's category logic, then by extension, the Yuan Dynasty could be argued as a "former country in Korean history" by virtue that it did hold a significant portion of northern Korea, or that the Qing Dynasty is a "former country in Russian history" because of the Amur annexation, etc etc. Imperial Japan can now arguably be a "former country in Korean, Chinese, etc history" on basis that it was technically the ruling country for large portions of territory on various respective countries. The records part is also especially unprecedented, the territorial argument at least could have some merit, the records argument is found only on this category and this category alone.

That's not even touching upon another key point, while I believe the initial definition was well-intentioned albeit misleading, this category is clearly being used to push a POV, because certain editors have not even been applying it correctly on the territorial basis, and the records argument can't even be used on basis that there's scores of countries on here from the medieval era up into the early modern era that have records of their respective kingdoms that aren't Chinese at all.

Here are some examples such as Champa, the Nguyen Dynasty of Vietnam, Tay Son, the Mac Dynasty, Later Tran, Le Dynasty, Ho Dynasty, Tran Dynasty, Ly Dynasty, Early Le Dynasty, Dinh Dynasty, Ngo Dynasty, Early Ly Dynasty.

These are thirteen examples that I have personally found of the exact edits that were clearly POV pushing, though I am sure there are more as I cannot reasonably be expected to find every single example. But here are thirteen "former countries in 'Chinese' history" that were added into this category, even though almost all of them have not held territory in what is now modern day China, and all of which were clearly civilizations that had their own record keeping and cannot in any shape or form be argued as a "country in chinese history" when they're clearly not Chinese. It's very clear the implication of these additions into this category, the clear violation of this very definition suggests that this category is being abused to just add former countries that have both historically not been Chinese and presently do not fall under modern Chinese borders, with the likely intention to suggest that these non-Chinese countries are "Chinese."

This is only touching the tip of the mountain on just how many other countries there are that are added on here that clearly never held any territory in modern day China or barely held any land in modern day China. Lan Xang, a Laotian kingdom is on here, Bogd Khanate of Mongolia (a modern Mongol state) is on here, the Ryukyus are on here even though the territory is under Japanese territory even if we disregard the disputed portions of the Ryukyus, Wiman Joseon which was based in modern day Pyongyang is on here even though it held no territory in modern-day China and could only fall under the territorial argument if we followed the Korean Nationalist revisionist school that suggests it was based in China rather than Korea, there's countless other examples like here and here even though most of these countries either did not hold land in modern day China, or held such a small portion of it that the argument can't logically hold.

As stated before, these additions completely violate the spirit of the problematic, vague definition. The vague definition suggests the countries have to either be in 1) the Modern day territories of China 2) Be a former country that was Chinese or 3) Be mainly recorded in Chinese history. The first one is problematic because that creates a massive cascading effect, the second is the most logical one because that's what most countries follow (or a hybrid of 1 and 2) and 3 is unprecedented and really is only applied to this page and should be fixed.

And yet despite all that, many of these former countries added here are clearly not territorally Chinese both past and present (Lan Xang, Champa, Nguyen Dynasty, etc). They are not ethically or culturally Chinese (Ryukyus, Buyeo, Bogd Khanate of Mongolia). Many of these countries appearances are found in their own records or modern Western records rather than that of China's (Especially all the medieval or modern states, such as Lan Xang, Champa, the Bogd Khanate). On this basis, there can really only be two explanations for why these countries are being added to this category based off the POV pushing, either 1) These countries fall under "Chinese territory" in the viewpoint that Laos, Vietnam, etc are/should be in the modern territories of China (because again, clearly some of these countries never ruled even a small part of China), or 2) that while these countries are not territorally a part of China, they are "Chinese."

This category must be redefined to follow the precedent of the ones of Japan, Korea, Mongolia, etc where it follows more of a state-succession or ethnic categorization rather than this maximalist territorial categorization that not only just adds countries that have inisignificant holdings in present day Chinese territory or even just adds countries that are territorially never been Chinese on here.

This category is clearly being manipulated to push a POV that suggests that various Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Indian, etc countries were "Former Countries in Chinese History" and by that virtue, that these are a "Part of China". While I disagree with the territorial argument, I could understand where this argument could come from. But this category page is blatantly being abused and its not even following the territorial argument, unless the implication is that various former countries that existed in Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Laos, parts of Japan fall under the territory of China, or are Chinese. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 03:56, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

@Grutness and @Musikanimal apologies in advance for referencing your edits and/or discussions on the talk page more than a decade ago, but I was hoping for your opinions on this since I did see there was a previous discussion on this topic many years ago (as well as reverting the deletion of the definition).

If you have the spare time, do you mind reading my talk page post pointing out the relatively vague definition as well as the violation of that very definition by various edits that suggest a strong, intended POV push, and providing your thoughts? Sunnyediting99 (talk) 04:16, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to give it a few more days, but if there is no opposition I will delete the pre-existing definition. Sunnyediting99 (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2024 (UTC)